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Author Topic: How to Calculate the odds.  (Read 2380 times)
donfromtexas
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« on: May 08, 2008, 06:38:52 AM »

Calculating Pot Odds in No Limit Texas Holdem
(Calling with a Flush Draw, Straight Draw, etc.)

After the flop, your play will depend on many factors, including information gathered pre-flop, what you know of your opponents and how they play, and the probabilities of having or making the best hand. If you have hit top pair with a strong kicker on the flop, then you have a strong hand and should bet at the pot. But the more difficult scenario is when you have flopped a flush draw or a straight draw, or perhaps an inside straight draw with two over cards. If someone bets, should you make the call?

At this point, it is important to first surmise what your opponent's hand is. Then, you must calculate the number of outs you have to make your hand the winning hand. The final step is to then understand the probabilities of hitting one of your outs, giving you the winning hand. These are all crucial steps in the decision making process.

For example, let's say I am holding JT offsuit.
The flop comes A 8 9 - rainbow.
The pot is current at $8.00, and Player1 bets $2.00. Everyone else folds.

Should I make the call?

Well, first I should think about what he may be holding. Let's say there was no pre-flop raise and Player1 is in early postion. He may have a pair of Aces with no kicker, or maybe a pair of 9's.

So, if I put him on a pair of Ace's, then I would need either a 7 or a Q to complete my straight and win the hand. Therefore, I have 8 outs - the four 7's in the deck plus the four Q's in the deck.

Now, if I have 8 outs, here is the calculation of hitting one of my cards on the turn or river:

There are 47 cards left unseen (I'm holding 2, there are 3 on the board, 52-5= 47). 47 - 8 outs = 39.

My calculation becomes: 1 - 39/47 (turn) * 38/46 (46 cards unseen prior to river):

1 - 39/47 * 38/46 = 31.5%

I have a 31.5% chance to hit my hand over the turn and river.

Now back to our scenario, I have to call a $2.00 bet to win what will be a $12.00 pot. Since my bet is only about 17% of the pot, yet I have a 31.5% chance of winning (across the turn & river card!), the "pot odds" justify making the call.

Now let's say Player1 bets $12 instead of $2. I would have to call $12 to win what will be a $32 pot. My bet is 37.5% of the pot, greater than my odds of hitting one of my outs, and therefore I should fold (we will get to implied odds further down).

The above scenarios are important to grasp. Picture yourself on the flip side now. Let's say you have a pair of Aces, and you do not want to allow someone to out draw you. You should do exactly what was outlined above - bet more than their odds would justify. If you bet the amount of the pot, then those chasing the straight (or the flush for that matter) are not getting proper pot odds to call, so you either force them to fold, or you force them to play incorrectly and chase a hand when they are betting against the odds. Your bet can help cause your opponents to make mistakes and incorrectly play their flush draw or straight draw.

So, how are you supposed to calculate your probabilities on the fly in the heat of battle... without a calculator? You don't. Memorize the below chart!!


Number of Outs Percentage of Hitting on either Turn or River
1 4.4
2 8.4
3 12.5
4 (Inside straight draw) 16.5
5 20.3
6 (Two overs) 24.1
7 27.8
8 (Open ended straight draw) 31.5
9 (Flush draw) 35.0
10 38.4
11 41.7
12 (Flush draw + Gut shot) 45.0
13 48.1
14 51.2
15 (Straight Flush draw) 54.1
16 57.0
17 59.8
18 62.4



Number of Outs Percentage of Hitting on River
1 2.2
2 4.3
3 6.5
4 (Inside straight draw) 8.7
5 10.9
6 (Two overs) 13.0
7 15.2
8 (Open ended straight draw) 17.4
9 (Flush draw) 19.6
10 21.7
11 23.9
12 (Flush draw + Gut shot) 26.1
13 28.3
14 30.4
15 (Straight Flush draw) 32.6
16 34.8
17 37.0
18 39.1


Memorize these figures (particularly the first chart), they will help you justify your calls. Now, the above scenarios were pretty simplified. There are other, more advanced, factors to potentially consider. For example, if you do not hit your card on the turn, can you assume Player1 will bet again and how much? If you know this information, this should also be included in your calculation of the bet vs. pot amounts.

Let's say you know Player1 will probably bet another $4 on the turn. So really, you are looking at calling $6.00 against a pot of $16.00. The percentage now is 37.5% (6/16) as opposed to our earlier example where it was 17%. In this case, the call isn't as clear and the current pot odds don't quite justify the call because 37.5% is greater than our 31.5%. However, there are implied odds to consider, and these odds may justify making this call.

This the last factor that is important to consider - implied odds. In the game of no-limit holdem, you potentially could win a much larger pot than the current pot you are calculating your odds against. If you do hit your hand, could you then bet the entire pot amount and assume Player1 will call? How much of a bankroll does Player1 have and is it possible to take it all on this hand? These are interesting questions and also can affect your decision. The total pot size at the very end of the hand, could easily justify making the call in the hopes of winning that pot. This is called "implied odds" and should also be considered.

Now go play and try incorporating this knowledge. I would say good luck, but luck is the enemy of a good player. Better yet, good pot odds!
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Metlz1
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 01:12:27 PM »

Question: When figuring the calculation...why not include the other players cards?? Huh
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 09:09:27 AM »

I believe because they are unknown to you. I could be wrong never was good at this
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witchywitchy
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 11:24:42 AM »



Yep, mawsrat is right. I never could get that crystal ball to work so I could see my opponents cards  Shocked
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tinheads
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 09:55:08 AM »

I read this about a year agao over at FRT, then re-read it about six months ago and realised I'd started to stray off he path of good sense math-wise and poker-wise, once i got that sorted out my game started to get a lot better.
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 10:58:53 AM »

KNOT GOOD AT COMPUTATIONS WITH MY 6TH GRADE EDUCATION Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 04:03:38 PM »

I always love it when you gave the other terrible pot odds and he takes them and then hits.  This just proves to him that he's a great player.
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texaspear
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2008, 08:09:05 AM »

Howdy,
Thank you Don.  I've read and reread this through out the years & always find it helpful.  Math's not my strong suit but this break down is simple enough I can even follow it Kiss.  If it helps me I'm sure it helps many others Grin.

See ya' at the tables and watch out you've armed us now, lol.
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 06:54:37 AM »

This is great info on calculating odds. When I first started playing I had no clues as to what was involved. Now I have no problem calculating my outs still working on the odds so I'm hoping this info will help
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xxmommaxx
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2008, 09:55:31 AM »

When I was in college, I took Statistics and passed without a problem.  I am good at math if you give me a bunch of problems, a calculator and a whole lotta time.  I got an A in every math class in college except for one.  That was Discrete Math!! (computer logic type math...scaarrry!!)  I was very happy with my C+ in that class.

So, with my history of math, you'd think that figuring out the odds would be a snap...Nope.  My brain does not seem to work fast enough to really work out the odds in my head during a hand.  I feel too rushed and I start to trip over the numbers in my head.  Roll Eyes  It really aggravates me.

I've read a lot of articles about it, checked out the charts, and I've found that when I'm faced with the option to call a draw or not, I tend to think more about my position, the table image I have at the moment, the mood of the table, how many chips I have left if I just call...the list always goes on and on when you think about any hand..lol.

I don't know if I'll every memorize the chart or even fully understand, but I seem to do okay with odds if I have to by thinking about my outs.  One thing I did remember was a suggestion from "Poker for Dummies."  The author had said to multiply your outs by 2 and then add 2.  That number is the chance, percentage-wise, that you will make your hand.  If that number is larger than your pots odds, you could call.

To figure pot odds I think of it this way...  If the pot is $100 and I would have to call $10 to stay in with my draw and I had a 25% chance of making my draw, then technically I should call.  The pot odds are 5:1 and I have a 4:1 chance of making my hand.  My odds of making my hand are bigger than the pot odds. 

But, playing online, I don't often use odd calculations as my deciding factor because of all the other considerations I mentioned before.  Wink
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witchywitchy
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2008, 10:25:05 AM »


Calculating the odds-two extreme values...
  • at a table with poker players - priceless
  • at a table with donkeys - worthless

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2008, 01:51:42 PM »

Now, that's what I was trying to say!  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2009, 06:37:57 AM »

Thanks I will see if this works tried a lot of different stratergies some worked and some don't, will give it a shot!!!!
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2009, 10:40:55 AM »

I tend to agree with Witchy.  If there are actual poker players at your table, then you can use the outs, pot odds, and implied odds to your advantage.  However if you are at a table with a bunch of calling stations, then you are going to end up in a lot of coin flip situations where you may lose big because the other player has to call everything and puts you in a losing situation because THEY are playing too many hands.  The most important thing when using pot odd's is to also make sure that you are getting a good read on your opponent.  If you do not have a good read, then the pot odd math will not win hand for you.  Of course, it is hard to get a good read on someone who plays EVERY hand. 

Later,
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2009, 03:37:14 PM »

Thanks for the lesson. I usually use a tool like an odds calculator. I know alot of people don't even take into account poker odds which is a big mistake I believe.
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